Transcript of Governance and
Administration Cluster Briefing, Statement by Home Affairs Minister Nkosazana
Dlamini-Zuma at Imbizo Media Centre, Cape Town
Introduction
Thank you very much and thank you ladies and gentleman of the media. This
briefing really is a cluster hearing and as you know the Government has decided
to have a few priorities and to really concentrate on those priorities.
The priorities for this cluster is the Local Government and the outcome that we
would like to see from that cluster is a responsible and effective Government
system and therefore whatever that cluster does in terms of that priority is to
support that outcome.
In our briefing we will not be talking of everything that we will be doing in
our individual Department that you will get when we do our Budget vote. But
today we will be talking mainly about those things that will support this
outcome of a responsive, accountable and effective Government.
As it has been said, I will not go through the document youve read it. I think
we should spend more time interacting as to reading. For instance in Home
Affairs we will just be ensuring that citizens have all the documents they need
to access the service, whether they service National, Provincial but mainly
Local Government services. We will ensure that in the coming Local Government
election, people who need to have IDs do have IDs, because part of the
responsiveness of the Local Government means people must have all the necessary
things in order to access whats going on and in terms of Public Services.
Weve been talking more about anti-corruption as part of supporting that outcome
and that obviously we need to have a clean Local Government, but a clean
Government generally. The anti-corruption, the Cadre Development, Public Service
development we will also be speaking to that because you cant have an outcome
that you wish to have unless you have cadres in the Public Service that can
deliver that service. Looking at e-Government it is also part to make a
services particularly Local Government accessible to the people that is really
the approach that we will be taking. Having said that I think I will just give
the floor to you to interact with us.
The Ministers will interact with you whatever area you want to ask. It would
help that you follow our approach and not ask everything of Home Affairs,
Public Services Administration but ask things that will support.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
Journalist: A question on vacancies in the State if you could just
give us a breakdown at National, Provincial and Local Government level. What is
the vacancy rate in the State and if you could just indicate the levels of
seniority on those posts and the impact its having on your ability to deliver.
Minister Richard Baloyi: I think the questioner will agree with me that
in terms of having to give a breakdown in details it is more details that are
expected. I think what we might want to talk about is vacancy rate in Public
Service. What it means to have vacancies that are not filled at what point? Do
you talk of a vacancy at a Public Service level and the impact that it has and
what we are doing to address this issue? The issue about vacancies in Public
Service arise where you will find in a Department you will have an approved
organisational structure that reflect vacancies that are not filled and we are
speaking of a vacancy when we combine that with funding.
So its a funded vacancy that we then say it has to be there. If you look at
figures you might arrive at different levels it depends on what the source of
that information is you use PERSAL. You will find it indicates that the level
of vacancy is at a particular point you use for instance the Public Service
Commission from time to time to conduct surveys and then come with reports that
indicate our vacancy rate is at a given point. So the priority for us of course
in the context of assisting as the Minister, our chairperson has indicated as
to our approach in terms of dealing with this.
When you have a vacancy that is not filled the impact is that you have a
resource that is not available if its 10% of your establishment it means
you are 10% not ready in terms of what it takes to have the human resources to
be able to address that. We are managing this in that way. We then see all the
vacancies that are there they definitely have to be filled of course when you
fill a vacancy there are quite a lot of factors that your consider. I spoke
about the availability of funding for that particular vacancy but its not
acceptable for Departments to stay for a longer time because if you stay for a
longer time with vacancies that are not filled you are actually compromising
yourself in terms of rising to the level of being able to address those things.
From one Department to another talking about one case to another may actually
sight different reasons to them say maybe you didnt have responsive
applications to actually move forward and backward and stuff like that. The
message we are saying in this year of action if we are to be true to our
commitment to provide support to the delivery of services faster, we would like
to actually see the vacancies if the vacancy arise within in a period of not
less than two months, we would like to see that vacancy filled.
Journalist: I wondered if you could give us a rundown on the identity
documents, the new machine readable identity books. What is the latest
situation on those that is certainly something that will improve delivery in
Local Government?
Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma: Im not sure what you are talking about,
we dont have machine readable ID books? Whose machine reads them?
Journalist: The credit card type IDs, smartcards?
Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma: The smartcard identity book was halted
because when Treasury gave the money to develop the smartcard the Department
had to go to SITA to run with the tender and SITA didnt do as it was suppose to
do and the board of SITA stopped that tender because there were irregularities.
Having stopped the tender the money went back to treasury and with the
recession and all the problems we have the money was then used for other things
but we are still pursuing.
We are now looking at, I think I communicated earlier we are still in
discussion to see whether this tender can be done differently because we had
bad experience with the tenders and SITA. So we are not sure whether we should
go back to SITA or be given an alternative way of dealing with. So that is the
situation we find ourselves in with the smartcard, but we will pursue it. In
our Budget we dont have the money for the smartcard but once we have
established which way to go because there was no point in asking so once we
have an alternative we will try to put in a bid in the next Budget. Thanks.
Journalist: My first question is more of a curiosity with regards to PERSAL.
There are some workshops that will be held for officials. Isnt PERSAL like
ancient already? Shouldnt people know how to use the system? Then I have a
question to Minister Shiceka, there are 283 municipalities, you just finished
the first phase where you visit the two worst off municipalities in each
province.
That leaves us with 18 that should also be getting attention of the 283 that is
very little. In the Free State there is about seven municipalities under
central intervention, you know 18 is not that much. Then there was something I
was concerned about that the MPSA doesnt have the power to force Departments to
adhere to provisions that relate to people being suspended. Surely that is a
problem for Local Government, if we have people being suspended and they are
suspended often times for 12 to 18 months and we pay their salaries.
Isnt there some way by using the labour legislation and the Public Service Act
to try and enforce municipalities and provincial legislatures and Local
Government to actually have an impact here to say you need to finalise these
disciplinary hearings within a set amount of time? Thank you.
Minister Richard Baloyi: The question as to whether it should not be
time now that we should say people should be as familiar with PERSAL to the
extent of what PERSAL is all about. I fully agree with you it should be time.
It should be time that we say people who are using the system are familiar but
you see PERSAL operate on the basis like they say when you use this ID
technology. They say garbage in garbage out to the extent that data quality of
PERSAL becomes an issue that becomes a call for us to then say we should not
rest on the assumption that age alone could then be saying that we are as
efficient and effective as we ought to be.
That is why as a Department we then say as a cluster operation PERSAL clean up
is the way to go and the workshops that you refer to, are actually meant to
deal with that issue so that if you have a system like that the system itself
not being a problem how do you match the system with peoples competencies. You
know continued enhancement of peoples competencies to be able to utilise this
system that we introduce is always the issue to go. So that is why we are doing
these things.
On the question as to the management of discipline we have set this year as a
year of action, the year when we should begin to do things differently we must
actually arise above a level of compliancy. Compliancy to then say there is
nothing we can do as DPSA those are policies we developed if the Departments
dont do anything about it, its not our case.
We are dealing with the issue of discipline management that is why one of our
priorities is to revisit the legislation and the practices that deals with
issues related to discipline management. We are then saying if a person is to
be suspended or have committed misconduct within a period of a month, the
Department is then in a position to determine the severity of a case and to
determine whether a suspension shall be accompanied with fully pay and it
should not be open ended. It must be managed within a given period of
time. This thing of people being suspended with full pay doesnt actually
impose a responsibility on both the side of the Department and the person who
has been suspended to move with speed towards the finalisation of the case that
is why we are saying we are doing things differently this year.
It is not natural that a Department of Public Service should have no power, it
is a question of tradition born out of a understanding of the situation that we
actually have to do differently now. So that is exactly what we are doing, we
will be unleashing a program as the Minister has indicated when we debate we
will be talking to the nation, talking to public servants for them to know that
the issues of disciplined management is an issue that we must actually add
speed to dealing with that, that is doing things differently.
Journalist: My question is also around the suspensions and the
disciplinary. You speak in the statement about exploring the possibility of
setting up a disciplinary unit to assist Departments in difficult and high
profile disciplinary cases, can you please elaborate on that? And also just
tell me what you see as a high profile disciplinary case?
Journalist: I also would like to understand what is a progressive
discipline? its on page 5 in the statement that we have.
Journalist: Minister I understand your explanation about not wanting to give the numbers on the vacancy rate but in terms when we come back here next year to assess your Departments progress you have the numbers available why not give it to us?
Minister Richard Baloyi: Its not a question about not wanting to give the numbers; the nature of this engagement is one on one. I think you will be surprise if I can talk numbers and numbers just like that. Its not that we are not willing to give; the numbers are there we will give detailed breakdown in terms of that, its not a secret. We have nothing to hide in as far as that is concern. Thats why I said lets talk about the issues, the impact of the high vacancy rates.
The issue of progressive discipline referred to in the document is a situation
where you are talking about progressive discipline implying a restorative
discipline instead of punitive. I think in the context that it is indicated in
the document that is exactly what we mean. So that on the one hand you are
actually going to look at what remedial action you can address on this. But on
the other hand definitely if discipline is to be balanced you cant avoid a
situation where you talk about the punitive action being taken about that. So
the question of saying how does you then looks at those things, in some areas
it might be that why you are not in a firing spree.
You then say in terms of our systems in terms of how we deal with, if you want to actually give an opportunity in the process of people mending their attitudes and their actions and responding to what it takes to be credible public servants. But on the extreme you definitely have to make sure that at some stage you will then say the door that you used to come into the public service may you use it quickly out of the public service that is what exactly we need to do.
High profile cases, where talking about cases of embezzlement of funds,
corruption, we are talking about system violations, those are actually high
profile cases talking about the issues of fraud and the like. Thats why we are
then saying within one month that indicated we need to know, determine the
severity. We must then be able to say in some cases why dont we even go the
route of even suspending without pay; those are things we are talking about?
The issue about heaving to come out with a unit that then says who deal with this things, assist Departments in dealing with some of these cases is actually based on the understanding that we are not actually going on with this hands off approach. To then say we have policies and stuff like that, we insist as DPSA to then say there has to be compliance with the policies that we set ourselves. It takes so much time, or firstly let me indicate that all cases of misconduct we will then be saying they have to be reported. We have to know that in Department A or Department B there is a case of misconduct going on so that we trace that to then say how far you are?
You need to actually deal with these issues and make sure that we finalize cases in time. Thats a priority in terms of what we do. We are going to link that with the issues on ethics management. We are actually creating an ethics committee within DPSA, and we will then say coming with a policy to then say each Department then need to have ethics offices. Then in dealing with issues like that and as we record the axe of the unethical conduct that may sometimes be to the degree of constitution a misconduct or corruption themselves, we will then deal with those issues and say lets expedite in dealing with those issues. Thats exactly what we mean.
Journalist: I just want to find out are you factoring in trade unions because you have a highly unionized public service. How are you factoring trade unions in these negotiations around trying to clean up the institution? And then beefing up of your own Department to get compliance in difference Departments, are you not just packing your Department with more bureaucrat? Is the idea not suppose to enable the Departments where the problems are to get their systems going to actually ensure that they expedite process. Shouldnt you beef up their HR capacity, their ability to do conflict resolution or to detect these problems. Are you not just packing your Department and shouldnt the intervention be in the individual Departments rather than at the DPSA?
Minister Richard Baloyi: You are right; we are not centralizing everything
at the Department. We are then saying through our capacity building
intervention, through our HR development intervention as part of the
responsibilities that we have to empower all Departments we then see
Departments on their own; they need to be able to deal with these things. But
when you say Departments on their own should be able to deal with these things
I commented like I did based on what is in the document that you have that says
no the Department of Public Service and Administration has got no rule. Its
like there is no central eye that says on this policy that we have to do 1 2 3,
lets address these issue, you are right we definitely have to capacitate and
make sure that Departments on their own at various spheres are able to deal
with that.
As to whether we are taking on board trade unions as you have indicated that
the public service environment is a highly unionized environment. We are
definitely doing exactly that. Late last year we had a summit ourselves as the
employer with labour organisations. At that summit we took a decision
committing ourselves that we want towards building a cadre a new cadre of
public service, a cadre will actually uphold the basic attributes that will
then define a public servant to be a public servant of note, to be clear of
issues of discipline conducting themselves within expectations.
So we actually have constant engagement, we will soon be having a public
service summit where we will be dealing with these issues tackling even
difficult questions. Because you see a unionized environment is actually not a
hostile environment to clean governance. Its just takes managers who are
actually equal to understand what trade unionism actually entail and also on
the part of trade unions themselves playing a roll to make sure that we may
achieve the clean efficient, effective Government status even in a unionized
environment.
Minister Sicelo Shiceka I also must add my voice in greeting you this
morning. Youve raised a question that there are too few municipalities that we
connected a pilot report. I think you will recall that on the 2nd of
December the Cabinet approved Local Government turnaround strategy as a
national framework as a road map that must be followed by all in sundries in
South Africa to ensure that municipalities are doing what the Minister said
being responsive and being efficient and being effective and accountable
this certain point. Now what we have done then, we have started in January /
February to take pilot which is 2 municipalities per province that are
worst off so that we can learn from that lesson on what to do going forward.
From the pilots we are moving now, between now and April to engage all
municipalities across the country. The intension of doing that is to develop a
specific a municipality turnaround strategy and implementation plan because we
cognise that we cant have a one size fit all because the condition in each and
every municipalities are different. We are going to be concluded that in
April/June between April and June we will be then be approving the budget of
the municipalities.
As you know the budget of municipalities are implemented on the 1st
of July. It means that this budget will be based on the turnaround strategy
that will be implemented in July. Now also we have gone to Provincial
Government Department, national Government Department, state own enterprises to
say whatever projects that is implementing in municipalities must be based on
the turnaround must be based on the IDP.
If anything is not in the IDP it cant be executed at a municipal level because we are saying municipalities in charge of every square metre every square kilometres of the land in South Africa whatever happens there because South Africa in terms of our system its a wall to wall system. It means that there are no piece of land that is under a municipality, therefore whatever happens there municipalities must agree with it. Municipality must feel that it adds in terms of what they are doing.
That is how we are doing it means that the turnaround is real and we are saying
this the people must be engage all sectors of society, we have discovered that
over 280 rate payers in South Africa which unfortunately are white
organisation. They created a parallel Government where they take the money
instead of paying service to municipality they put it in a trust account. It
means then that undermine the ability of municipality to deliver service now we
are dealing with that to engage because we say everyone must come to the party.
If you unhappy about pot holes, lack of service delivery lets discuss that, thats
what the municipal specific turnaround time is all about. It must be driven by
the people and that what then is happening to the relation of municipal
turnaround strategies.
We are mobilising everyone to come to the party. The other issue that has been
raced of violent protests we have discovered that these protests all of them
without exception they happen because the people have been raising things
with municipalities without getting response the anger has been boiling up. Now
what we are doing we are developing a mechanism of dealing with all the issues
that have been raced with municipalities to be able to deal. We have a mini
workshop tomorrow where we are meeting with the colleague in province and local
government leaders to discuss that.
To ensure that we are able to handle protests we are responsive whilst we are
dealing with the long term of supporting municipalities. The last point I want
to talk about is an issue of the DC that take so long. We are coming with a
bill that will be presented the municipal system act as we amending we are
presenting in the cabinet now March. That bill is aimed at ensuring
one that when people are employment are skilled people, if the council
employees are unskilled people what will happen is that the MEC must intervene
within a prescribe period.
If the MEC does not intervene the national Minister must intervene within a
prescribe period to reverse that. If that situation is address then we are
moving to the issue of suspension and firing, because there have been
indiscriminate firing and suspension in this qualities particular in at a
senior management level. We are saying then we want to ensure that theres
stability Cadre of leadership in a municipality.
That stability is that if you suspending or you are firing you must report to
the province and they must report to national cause you must write it down and
explain why the reasons? Why certain things happen and ensure that we counter
that. Therefore we believe that if we do those things we will be able to move
forward. The last point that we are dealing with was raised by the president in
the January 8 statement. Its where employees at a level of managers are office
bearers of political parties; we are putting a Bill to deal with that we are
presenting it to COSATU yesterday because we met in Johannesburg.
They a bit unhappy but we say lets engage but the bill is coming this month. We
presenting it to Cabinet this month to ensure that we deal with all those
things even the issues of prolonging discipline we want it to be snappy, quick
and we are looking at this thing people who has done great things as the
Minister of Public Works were saying who continue being paid by the State,
those issues we are dealing with in the Bill we want to ensure that they are resolved.
Journalist: Just a follow up you refer to rate payers association
that undermine municipality the ability to deliver service, given that and the
proliferation of violent protests we seen across the country. Would you agree
that a lot of people are just sick and tired of the lack of service delivery
and that they dont trust Government to deliver the service even though
Government say it will be given we see township and suburbs overflow by
sewerage and potholes not being fixed?
Journalist: I just want to find out from this cluster whether you are
considering any measures to determine the phenomenon of Civil Service doing
business with the states link to what you talking about anti corruption dealing
with suspension?
Journalist: The other dimension to the protests and violent protests has
been identified as political infighting. Two issues has arise what can you do
to stop and secondly would any measures that you take not be so unpopular that
the municipal election next year would be problematic?
Journalist: Regarding a political infighting, I see one of the proposals in
the turnaround strategy is to have a single election for national Provincial
and Local Government at the same time. This will be a huge big change, what is
the status of this proposal is there going to be debate about it and what do
you personally think the benefit will be for local communities?
Minister Sicelo Shiceka: There is a high degree of unhappiness about the
quality and the quantity of services delivered at a Local Government level.
That is why there is what is called Local Government Turnaround Strategy. We
are saying even the white ratepayers associations who are protesting silently
by taking their money to the trust accounts they must come to the party and
lets find solutions all of us. That is the core of our message when we say that
Local Government is everybodys business and equally those that are protesting
violently we are saying lets engage on that.
That is why Im saying we will be presenting a plan on how to curb these violent
protests when we meet with the MECs and Local Government leaders so that we are
able to do deal with this thing because it undermines the program we are
involved in, in supporting municipalities and moving forward because of the
protest. To us its like a baby who is crying when the baby sees the parent ,
because we are dealing with the issue people are raising these things more so
they are able to get attention.
On the issue of political infighting, we find that in most areas if not all
the conditions there are not to good people are raising genuine issues but what
we are saying as much as they do so they must not use violence means to be able
to attract attention on the issues. Therefore from our point of view we believe
that lets find peaceful means to address the thing we have said in our plan
that by 2014 we would like to see a situation where there are no violent
protests in South Africa.
We are able to be responsive we can attend to peoples issues and therefore they
dont have to go to the streets to burn tyres and property for them to be
listened to, going forward. On the matter of the issue of the single election
the matter has been presented to all structures of the ruling party it has not
gone to Cabinet where this matter is being presented and there is a broad
agreement but we will be taking the further consultations on the matters going
forward to take it up.
What are the benefits, the benefits are very simply the benefits are going to ensure that we dont have an election fatigue as a country because if you look at it we have elections two and a half year later its a another election it means there is no time for stability for us to focus on service delivery in the way we do things. At the same time its going to assist on planning when we plan we have one plan there are no different manifestos for political parties you have one manifesto and you are able to ensure you execute it within in a period of five years. In terms of allocation of resources we will be able to allocate the resources adequately because we have one election even on the issue of deployment of personnel in relation to people who represent political parties.
What is happening now the best cadres are in National Government then the
second coach of the train is in Provincial Government and you find the last
coach becomes Local Government. You find that we dont have the best of the best
in Local Government but if you have one election that thing is going to be
dealt with that is what was raised on issues when they were presented in
structures and its something that we are still going to when they were
presented in structures and its something that we are still going to take up
for engagement because Cabinet is the one that decides on matters its not only
parties that raises things. Thank you very much.
The question on civil servants doing business with the State, I think this
question is twofold one deals with the Public Service which is under the
Department of Public Service and Administration and also Local Government. In
terms of the laws the Public Service Act as amended in 2008 it doesnt allow any
public servant to do business with Government. Even if you are to do business
outside your normal work you must get permission from the executive authority
now secondly at a Local Government level it is not allowed that even your
family let alone in terms of Local Government Laws Amended Act of 2008.
Let alone yourself as a person but even your immediate family members are not
allowed to conduct business with Government if you are an employed by
Government now anybody who violates that is something that has to be taken by
Government to deal with it because you cant have your cake and eat it. You work
here and you give business to your own companies whilst you are in a position of
decision making thats what being raised there at that level in terms of
conducting business at a Local Government level. I think in terms of the Public
Service the Minister can talk to that regime that drives that, thank you very
much.
Minister Richard Baloyi: In addition to what Minister Shiceka has
indicated the question that we have is like you raised it, what are we then
doing? We have developed a code of good practice. We will be going through
extensive consultations in this regard. We are going to launch the code on
Public Service Day during the Public Service Week starting on the 23rd
of June. In that code of conduct we are going to address issues related to the
introduction of a Public Service Charter that outlines the dos and the donts.
Calling on public servants to commit themselves not only just commit themselves
for the sake of commitment but commit themselves and we are then enforce on
management to make sure that when we then say you do assessment, annual
assessment on the performance of your public servants you should actually
include into that. Included in what we are then saying is a question of saying,
should we as Minister Shiceka has said, as far as doing business with
Government that is outright no.
Should we then say in as far as in doing business in general outside is that something we want to say lets continue with because there is a thin line of dividing to then say now you are doing business with Government now you are doing business with business. The issue is, do you really want to continue with the arrangement where you then say allow your public servants to share their time of doing work as public servants and doing work as business people outside? We will be going through the consultation sessions as Ive indicated with a view that we might want to amend some of the legislations that we have, we might want to revisit some of the policies that we have. We have this in terms of the Public Service Act as amended we then say you can be allowed to do remunerative work outside, so participating in business.
We want to leave it open ended because its not only the issue you have interest you can actually deal with those things but its also a reality that a human being can only perform to certain extent you need to actually re-energise so that you are ready to deliver in terms of what is expected of you. If we allow that somebody might say Im doing my public service nurse work during the day but Im also working for a private clinic, I will actually do night shift in the process one of the two employers are going to be cheated and you will find in the majority of cases it will not be the private sector that will be cheated, it will be actually the public one.
So we are coming with strong measures of recommending, prescribing that this
can only be given to a certain category. When it comes to the issue of doing
business there are two things we want to mange there, the issue of declaration
and the issue of disclosure. In the majority of cases the concept of disclosure
has actually been used as a shelter, you disclose as a public servant that you
have interest in business so you continue to do business and it becomes a
shelter. At the end of the day when it comes to the ills of your participating
in those business interests, it becomes something that actually complicates the
management of that particular conduct. We are then saying is it not time now
that we manage these things on the question of declaration that if you are a
public servant you have to sit and adjudicate on a tender and you have interest,
you declare your assets.
That is the debate we are taking to the people of South Africa and the people
will then talk to us and say lets tighten this regulations because the
President has indicated we need to revisit this Public Service regulations, are
they all supportive of the State in its mission to make sure we have clean
governance, we have accountable public servants, public servants who dont have
divided loyalties and attitudes as to when it comes to work. So we will be
doing that and will finally launch the code on the 23rd of June
which will be launching the Public Service Week to take the process forward.
Thank you.
Journalist: Minister I think your answer gives a lot of questions than
it gives answers. Should you not keep civil servants from doing business at all
just to deal with all of these problems that your answers to my questions are
raising?
Journalist: I want to ask Minister Shiceka it actually relates to this whole issue. How do you want to turn around Local Government if senior ANC officials or politicians are allowed to do business with an ANC Local Government? Its ok to ban officials to do business but what about the politicians like weve seen now in Limpopo.
Journalist: Minister Shiceka spoke about the Bill on political office
bearers. Where does that process stand in terms of the legislation but also is
there a general agreement in all structures of the ruling party that this is
the way we are going?
Journalist: You said COSATU is not happy with the office bearers not holding public office in the State. Can you explain what COSATU is not happy with?
Minister Sicelo Shiceka: On the issue of senior officials doping business of political parties with Government. There is no law that prevents that, therefore we are a constitutional State that whatever we do must be prescribed by law. I think people if they feel that we must be able to come with the law they must be able discuss the matter with Government. To me the issue that is more important is that we must be able to ensure that people when they do business they do proper business, the quality of the work that is done must be the one that speaks for itself in terms of the one that is being done at that level.
But as to whether people do business and so on as I am saying I was outlining
that in terms of the Local Government Laws Amendment Act its says no counsellor
or immediate family member can do business with Local Government. In terms of
Treasury Regulations those public representatives at a national and provincial
level cant do business with Municipalities, very clear on that? Therefore there
is no legal basis that you can be able to say that private citizens must not do
business with Municipalities. Im saying we cant be able to venture into that.
The other issue that is being range is on the political office bearers of
parties being employees at a management level of the Council. That is a matter
that has been taken to all structures of the ruling party. If you would recall
the President in the January 8th Statement spoke about that matter
that is not allowed. COSATU is unhappy because they feel that this thing is
going to be abused and ban employees of Municipalities in general even those
that are junior to be part of political parties, thats their concern.
We have said then from our side we are dealing with their leadership of Municipalities at a management level that we feel they must not be office bearers. We are not saying they must not be part of the executive committees of political parties but we are saying they must not be office bearers. It means the Chairperson, a Deputy Chairperson, a secretary, a deputy secretary and a Treasury, thats what we are raising. We have said that any concerns we might have we must continue engaging but I have said I outlined to them, that the bill is going to be in front of Cabinet this month of March, then Cabinet will pronounce on it.
Minister Richard Baloyi: Just in addition we are a public service that is operating in a democratic environment, a democratic society, with a constitution that prescribes the Bill of Rights and the like. It is in this arrangement that when you have to change your Legislation, your policies you must consult the people. Thats why we are saying banning is an option but is that an immediate and outright thing. When we talk to the people like I said we are actually consulting on the code of good practice to be launched on the 23rd of June.
If the people will come around like you are saying please ban, we will
pronounce, not only pronounce but manage. As we are at the phase of
consultation its necessary for us to talk about options that are there thats
why we are then saying the one option is to continue with what is happening but
strengthen and what is it that is happening at the moment? At senior management
level if public servants do business they disclose and stuff like that, now how
do you then tighten the management of that? We then say one option is that you
actually make sure that you tighten your supply store management. So you will
then be able to manage it electronically so that seated here. If there is a
tender being issued say in a Municipality in Limpopo you should be able
electronically to pick that up in the system and we will then be able to check
who else is linked in the activities.
So you will then be able to check in terms of tracing parts of corruption and
then be able to address that. If South Africans will say lets go on
strengthening the management of what we have so that you dont have serious
challenges but if South Africans say banning will do then we will manage that.
But lets allow that I think media houses present here you also want to have
your own input so that we then say together can wee govern this country and
govern it very responsibly.
Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma: We are a young democracy and the
important thing is that we should always take stock of lessons learned in our
work and then use those lessons to improve whatever we have found to be a
problem. I think that is what we are doing, we have seen there is a problem
around this issue of business and public servants so we are learning our
lessons and we are trying to use the lessons to improve the governance.
Journalist: Minister Baloyi you were together with Minister Doidge
appointed to look at the review of the Ministerial Handbook. What steps has
been taken thus far and can you give us any timeframes on when we will see the
actual changes if there are any.
Journalist: Minister you admitted that this widespread dissatisfaction
with the state of local municipalities but you also seem to be saying we must
believe the turnaround strategy is like the panache to all of this. But you
would know its not the first time that we have had such an intervention. We
have had product consolidate, we have had many other interventions which were
less high profile but which was also meant to deal with Local Government. Why
must we believe that this turnaround strategy will be the solution? What are
you going to do differently that has not been done before?
Journalist: Minister Shiceka, can you not take the initiative yourself
to come up with a draft law banning office bearers from the ruling party or
wherever they are from having companies that gets millions of rands of tenders,
I mean you are in the process of banning office bearers from being senior
managers of municipalities. Why do you need to wait for the people to pronounce
on this?
Journalist: NERSA has recommended a cap for municipalities for the
electricity increases they can pass on to consumers. SALGA has challenged this
saying that NERSA has no right to introduce such a cap or introduce the blocked
tariff. Can you comment on Governments views and especially in the context of
how depended municipalities have become on the revenue they generate from
electricity sales.
Journalist: There were reports about 500 000 IDs that were going to be
destroyed because people havent claimed them. Then the Department turnaround
and said something else, what is the real issue? How many are going to be
destroyed if they are going to be destroyed? To Minister Baloyi the suspended
Correctional Services Commissioner, Xoliswa Sibeko , you spoke to her on
behalf of the Minister of Correctional Services about her suspension. Now her
position has been advertised and she says she wants her job back because shes
been cleared. What is your understanding on this issue, has she been fired?
Minister Sicelo Shiceka: Well what is being raised is quite an important
question where you say what is different now. The difference is that, this
intervention is driven by us internally in Government we have not used any
consultant to develop a state of Local Government to understand what are the
challenges; it has never been done before. The second thing the developed of a
solution have been homebrewed done by officials in the Department, Province and
National without any involvement of consultants. The third most important thing
is that we want this program to be owned by the people even if politicians can
go the program must remain and be defended by the people because its owned by
the people.
We are saying solutions of Local Government we have not unleashed the potential
of South Africans because there was a lot of gate keeping in a way of people
coming to the party and so on we are saying once South Africans own this program
it must be in their hearts and minds this program. They must make Government
accountable in terms of what is expected of them now those are the fundamental
shifts in a way these things are being done and the resourcing of the program
is going to be looked at by ourselves. We want to ensure that even the white
community that has not been part of things we want them to come to the party to
come and make a contribution because we believe if all of us can use our
resources we can be a winning nation.
We have taken the program to the African National Congress (ANC), NEC, and
central executive committee of the Communist Party, to the Special Congress of
the Communist Party, we are presenting it to COSATU yesterday and it has also
been taken to the Alliance Summit, everybody is supporting the program. This
means its not an individual who will find solutions on its own, we are saying
the whole of society must rally behind the program and support it. Its not
about me or the Department or Government its about South Africans and ensuring
they are doing what they should be doing. There are a lot of elements of the
turnaround that will be unveiling as we go around; a lot of things are going to
be done to ensure things are changing.
On the legislation that must ban leaders of political parties particularly the
ruling party from accessing tenders, to me I think we must look at the
constitution. Those people dont take decisions about which tenders must be
allocated where, are we not depriving people of their right in terms of
economic activity that is what we must be discussing. We must also look at the
constitution of the Bill of Rights in doing so because the reason for people to
be barred from tender issues is when they take decisions in those structures.
Its for the nation to discuss whether its the right thing to do but from our
side as Government the matter has not been discussed by the party, two I think
you would appreciate that whatever we do, we do things to advance the course of
the party that has deployed us to be here. Therefore in that respect we would
not as a ministry come with a law that has not been researched on its
constitutionality in the way we do things. If people are raising it we are
prepared to debate this going forward.
Coming to the issue of the capping, the almost 16% of capping around surcharges
that municipalities are putting on services, it is something that we believe
even ourselves, NERSA has no local standing on the matter. We are preparing a
meeting with NERSA to have a discussion on the matter because we believe they
have gone beyond what is expected of them in relation to the issue of
surcharges. The people who look at that is National Treasury and ourselves
because we look at the macro economic issues its not a matter of NERSA but we are
arranging a meeting with them to discuss on how to handle it.
Its going to hurt municipalities because some of them they were charging
surcharges even up to 35% now if at a go you tell them you no longer have the
income you use to have its going to have fundamental implications to
municipalities. This is why we want to discuss this issue with NERSA and be
able to find a solution on this matter, we believe municipalities must have
revenue equally we dont believe that municipalities must charge people in a way
that is un-transparent because we believe surcharges must be open, people must
know what they are being charged at that level. Thanks.
Minister Richard Baloyi: On the issue about the commissioner of
Correctional Services, it is true that I had a discussion with her and the
Minister. (Delicia) It is true that I am continuing to do that in my capacity
as Minister of Public Service and Administration, responsibly to deal with such
issues. I have indicated that Im continuing to do so even today I will be
engaged in matters relating to that issue because its a contested matter. I
think it will be fair for us not to get into the details in terms of the merit
of the case, safe to indicate that in no time the contestation will come to a
close and the public will know about that. I think it will be proper that is
what they call sub-judicate it may not be the right thing for me deeply
involved in dealing with this matter to comment before the final processing of
the matter as I indicated there are contestations.
On the question from the Mail & Guardian about what steps because I and
Minister Doidge appeared of cause its true. We have signed responsibility to
look at reviewing the Ministerial Handbook to look at the applicability and
otherwise of certain clauses of the Handbook. We will soon finalize, we have a
draft that is still being considered because we were just leading the process.
But we have to actually submit and have a final position that will then say if
it is something that goes out for public consumption the collective leadership
of Government will add their views on the proposals. So very soon we will
communicate in terms of which areas of the Ministerial Handbook were suggesting
you need to tighten or you need to revisit in terms of content. Certainly
before the lekgotla, before the World Cup.
Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma: Let me start by saying when somebody
applies for an ID the application goes through head office then the ID
eventually get sent to their offices where they applied. The IDs get kept for 6
months waiting for the people to come and collect them we also try and send
them smss to remind them to collect their IDs but as you know people change
smss and the system of smss has just started, so before then we didnt have that
system. After 6 months as you can imagine the office first do not have a lot of
space to store these IDs forever and secondly its not advisable that they
remain at the local offices so after 6 months they get sent back to head
office.
So these 500 IDs that we have talked about are the IDs that are at head
offices, some of them are as old as 2004 which are still waiting for people to
collect them. When they go to the offices after 6 months they will then be told
that your ID has been sent to the Head office but then the office sends a
message that ID number so and so that belong to so and so can now be send back
again because the person has surfaced. Obviously we will not be able to keep
those IDs for a100yrs at some stage we will have to do something about them.
But what is important for the public to understand is that its very important
to look after your ID.
Some of these people who dont fetch their IDs its because maybe they were going
to the bank and realised they forgot their IDs, they go to the Home Affairs office
and get a temporary ID. Once you have applied for an ID whether you get a
temporary ID the process goes on to produce the ID itself. During the elections
people lose their IDs and they rush to Home Affairs to get an ID they get a
temporary ID which allows them to vote in the meantime the process goes on to
produce a new ID. Meanwhile they have found their ID and have even
forgotten that they have applied for a new ID so its very important for people
to look after their identity documents and not to rush to Home Affairs to apply
for an ID if they dont find their ID.
Some of them might have been people who have passed on so there would be a
variety of reasons why people have not fetched that IDs. If they dont get fetch
we might have to destroy them but at the moment they are at head office waiting
to be collected, once you have applied for an ID you must collect it. Of course
even if you have found your old ID you must still collect the new one because
legally the one that you lost gets overtaken by the new one. If there was a
legal dispute and you were using the old one you would lose the case because
the one that is valid is the latest one. Its important to fetch your ID if you
applied for it and make sure you use the newest ID.
We are looking at increasing the tariffs for ID applications because the first
application is free and will stay like that but the second application you pay
less than R20.00. So we are going to increase the tariffs so that people think
twice of just going to the nearest office to apply for an ID. They must make
sure they look after their identity documents and value this document because
sometimes things we get to cheaply we dont value it. So I would ask you as the
media to from time to time make sure that in the public you make that point
that people must look after their identity documents, its something that you
really value, how many times we lose our car or house keys? We dont because we
value them. The ID should be the same then we wont have thousands of IDs
sitting at offices waiting for people to be collected. I would like to take
this opportunity to thank you for coming to this cluster and your interactive
engagements and your suggestions we will examine them, thank you.
The End.
